Blue Lysander and some Bikes (2000)
HQ: Captain Darnath Lysander (1#, 200 pts)
1 Captain Darnath Lysander, 200 pts
HQ: Space Marine Captain (1#, 165 pts)
1 Space Marine Captain, 0 pts
1 ...in Power Armour, 165 pts = (base cost 100) + Space Marine Bike 35 + Relic Blade x1 30
Elite: Sternguard Veteran Squad (11#, 295 pts)
9 Sternguard Veteran Squad, 235 pts = 9 * 25 (base cost 25) + Combi-Meltagun x2 10
1 Sergeant, 25 pts
1 Drop Pod, 35 pts
Troops: Space Marine Bike Squad (6#, 225 pts)
4 Space Marine Bike Squad, 120 pts = 4 * 25 (base cost 25) + Meltagun x2 20
1 Attack Bike, 50 pts = (base cost 40) + Multi-Melta 10
1 Sergeant, 55 pts = (base cost 40) + Power Weapon 15
Troops: Space Marine Bike Squad (6#, 235 pts)
4 Space Marine Bike Squad, 120 pts = 4 * 25 (base cost 25) + Meltagun x2 20
1 Attack Bike, 50 pts = (base cost 40) + Multi-Melta 10
1 Sergeant, 65 pts = (base cost 40) + Power Fist 25
Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 240 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 152 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Meltagun 5 + Sergeant 51
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Fist x1 25
1 Rhino, 40 pts = (base cost 35 + Dozer Blade 5)
Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 235 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 147 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Sergeant 51
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Fist x1 25
1 Rhino, 40 pts = (base cost 35 + Dozer Blade 5)
Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 225 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 147 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Sergeant 41
1 Sergeant, 38 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Weapon x1 15
1 Rhino, 40 pts = (base cost 35 + Dozer Blade 5)
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 90 pts)
1 Land Speeder Squadron, 90 pts = (base cost 50) + Typhoon Missile Launcher x1 40
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 90 pts)
1 Land Speeder Squadron, 90 pts = (base cost 50) + Typhoon Missile Launcher x1 40
Composition Report:
HQ: 2 (1 - 2)
Elite: 1 (0 - 3)
Troops: 5 (2 - 6)
Fast: 2 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 0 (0 - 3)
That's 60 models, not a bad haul. I normally don't like taking multiple HQ's. The Bike Captain gives me another type of Troop choice, which I like. I'm not overly fond of Lysander and the Sterngard dropping in on the first turn. It will probably work out if I go second or my opponent deploys a juicy target. I'm also apprehensive about their lack of melta weapons. Not sure if 2 combi meltas will cut it. Another option is dropping the Sterngard and a Tactical Squad, then adding a Land Raider and Assault Terminators. That puts a big hit on my model count, though.
Here's a list featuring Both Pedro and Lysander:
Total Roster Cost: 2000
HQ: Chapter Master Pedro Kantor (1#, 175 pts)
1 Chapter Master Pedro Kantor, 175 pts
HQ: Captain Darnath Lysander (1#, 200 pts)
1 Captain Darnath Lysander, 200 pts
Elite: Sternguard Veteran Squad (11#, 330 pts)
9 Sternguard Veteran Squad, 240 pts = 9 * 25 (base cost 25) + Combi-Meltagun x3 15
1 Sergeant, 55 pts = (base cost 25) + Combi-Meltagun x1 5 + Power Fist x1 25
1 Drop Pod, 35 pts
Elite: Sternguard Veteran Squad (11#, 340 pts)
9 Sternguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts = 9 * 25 (base cost 25) + Combi-Meltagun x2 10 + Heavy Flamer x1 10
1 Sergeant, 55 pts = (base cost 25) + Combi-Meltagun x1 5 + Power Fist x1 25
1 Rhino, 40 pts = (base cost 35 + Dozer Blade 5)
Elite: Sternguard Veteran Squad (10#, 280 pts)
8 Sternguard Veteran Squad, 210 pts = 8 * 25 (base cost 25) + Combi-Meltagun x2 10
1 Sergeant, 30 pts = (base cost 25) + Combi-Meltagun x1 5
1 Rhino, 40 pts = (base cost 35 + Dozer Blade 5)
Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 235 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 147 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Sergeant 51
1 Sergeant, 48 pts = (base cost 23) + Power Fist x1 25
1 Rhino, 40 pts = (base cost 35 + Dozer Blade 5)
Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 210 pts)
9 Tactical Squad, 147 pts = 9 * 16 (base cost 16) + Sergeant 26
1 Sergeant, 23 pts
1 Rhino, 40 pts = (base cost 35 + Dozer Blade 5)
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 90 pts)
1 Land Speeder Squadron, 90 pts = (base cost 50) + Typhoon Missile Launcher x1 40
Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 90 pts)
1 Land Speeder Squadron, 90 pts = (base cost 50) + Typhoon Missile Launcher x1 40
Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (1#, 50 pts)
1 Attack Bike Squad, 50 pts = (base cost 40) + Multi-Melta x1 10
Composition Report:
HQ: 2 (1 - 2)
Elite: 3 (0 - 3)
Troops: 2 (2 - 6)
Fast: 3 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 0 (0 - 3)
I like the second list pretty well. It's got the same potential downside as the first, a Turn 1 Drop Pod. Pedro rides in the Rhino with the third Sterngard Squad. The lack of invulnerable saves worries me - Lysander and Pedro each have one, but that's it. In the first list the bikers can at least get a 3+ cover save by turbo boosting. Obviously, I like Land Speeder Typhoons, they're in both lists. I felt I needed some decent long range threats against light armor and infantry.
Apologies for the army list format, I copied it straight from Army Builder. It's a great program, I just don't like the default custom outputs. That being the case, I'm making my own - but that's another post.
That's it for now. I may try that second list out this weekend, I've been itching to run Pedro again.
Friday, June 24, 2011
Stubborn Lists
So my articles on using Stubborn effectively weren't groundbreaking. What did I find out? Play lots of tactical squads, basically - stuff I was going to do anyway when playing Space Marines. The good news is I don't feel like I'm missing out on much by replacing Combat Tactics with Stubborn, I just have to take advantage of enemy units stuck in combat. With that in mind here are a few army lists featuring Pedro and Lysander (the dudes who make Space Marines Stubborn):
Thursday, June 16, 2011
Finding a use for Stubborn - Part 2
In my last post I got inspired by a recent article and starting thinking about how vanilla Space Marines can take advantage of the Stubborn USR. I covered what I feel are the keys are to using Stubborn effectively in my last post: Redundancy, Killing Power, Target selection and wound allocation. In this post I will try to pick out units in the codex that can accomplish all of these keys to the maximum extent possible, thus enabling Blue Lysander to see the light of day. Or the light of the local game store, either way.
Redundancy is the first key. If I want to maximize the benefit of Stubborn, my models need some staying power. Space Marines aren't IG, so I can't run a 40 man unit and eventually whittle down an opponent in close combat. Furthermore, if one of my units gets stuck in I can't let that wreck the rest of my plans. I need redundancy both in terms of staying power and tactical flexibility. Space Marines can't achieve staying power through numbers, but they're fairly durable in terms of armor saves and toughness. I believe those characteristics in a 10 man squad gives me some decent staying power. As for tactical flexibility, the more squads I have the better. I'll still be able to accomplish a goal if I have a squad stuck in, and it may buy my other squads time to exploit emergent situations.
Killing Power is up next. Yeah, Stubborn will allow my units to stick around in combat for a while and allow me to tie up an opponent's unit, too. But I don't want to sit there the whole time getting my ass kicked. I need to eventually kill off his unit or at least greatly diminish its combat effectiveness. Space Marines are absolutely not as good in close combat as other armies, so how can Space Marines kill stuff with a reasonable degree of certainty in close combat? The short answer is power fists, STR 8 power weapons that hit at initiative 1. Put one on a Space Marine sergeant and he's got good chance of causing at least one wound with no armor save allowed every time he's in hand-to-hand. Is it as good as some other armies can pull off? Hell no. But the goal here is to buy time for my non-engaged units and gradually whittle down the opposing unit. Normal Power weapons also prevent armor saves and they're 10 points cheaper than a fist. In short, they can give your sergeant more opportunities to cause wounds by virtue of more chances to hit, but fists have a better chance to wound when they hit.
So far it looks like 10 man squads are best at meeting the Redundancy key, and slapping power fists or power weapons on models can provide some decent Killing Power. Looking at the codex, I see that any unit except a Command Squad can go up to 10 members; and any unit at least has the option of obtaining some flexibility but using transports, infiltrating, outflanking, etc. That's good, but it doesn't help me pick units that can best take advantage of Stubborn. Ditto for Killing Power - any sergeant can take power weapons or fists, and both Honor Guard and Vanguard Vets can spam the crap out of them. Time to move on to the last two keys, maybe that will help me narrow down my choice.
Target Selection is third. Some enemy units will always be better to tar pit than others. "Pick your battle" so to say. For Space Marines satisfying the Target Selection key is a two-fold process. As the mighty general, roller of dice and mover of little men I have to 1) pick a good enemy unit to tar pit and 2) be able to get that unit into the tar pit. The best unit type to tar pit will change based on opponent and game type, so the tactical flexibility I should have by meeting the Redundancy key should help here. Actually picking out the tar pit target? That's largely dependent on experience.
Last up is Wound Allocation. I think this one is pretty straightforward: try to keep the guy with the highest Leadership value around. For Space Marines, this is typically a sergeant which has the added bonus of keeping some Killing Power in my squad. With a leadership of 9, I have a 75% chance of staying in a combat so I can tar pit my opponent longer.
So far the keys I've outlined largely align with basic Space Marine characteristics: durability, flexibility, and decent killing power. Good Target Selection is comprised of experience (which isn't dependent on unit characteristics) and flexibility. Stubborn certainly isn't one of those USR's a player is going to go out of their way to use, like Furious Charge. Its job is to mire units in close combat, period. Stubborn will not win a battle or even a close combat by itself, and choosing an HQ based solely on the fact they make an army Stubborn isn't a good plan. Is it always advantageous to have a unit stuck in close combat? No, not at all - but remember, it's not always advantageous to the opponent, either. As a matter of fact, it can be a downright disadvantage with good Target Selection. The thing Stubborn Space Marines should probably try to avoid in most cases is being multi-charged. One enemy unit charges my two Tactical Squads, for example. That could be bad as sticking two Stubborn units in close combat will almost certainly hamper my flexibility, as they may both be there for a while.
I'm still not any closer to identifying the *perfect* unit to take in a Stubborn army and quite frankly I'm not sure there is supposed to be one. Sure, I can take 30 Assault Terminators and they would have both staying and killing power, but they aren't the most flexible of units in terms of moving around. Plus 30 terminators doesn't leave much points for anything else. Wish me luck trying to capture an objective, too. The ubiquitous Tactical Squad is another choice and seems like a pretty good one in this case. They're Troop choices, and I can give them wheels for flexibility and a hidden power fist/weapon. Bikes are another possibility, though I'll need a Captain on a bike to get the most out of them. Toughness 5 Troop choices that can move 24" in a turn, and bring along 3 melta weapons and a power fist? Seems good. They will be pricy, but not outrageous; and their flexibility isn't going to be hampered by losing their transport. They also provide more Target Selection flexibility thanks to their mobility.
Next post will have some army lists that feature Pedro Kantor and (Blue) Lysander.
Redundancy is the first key. If I want to maximize the benefit of Stubborn, my models need some staying power. Space Marines aren't IG, so I can't run a 40 man unit and eventually whittle down an opponent in close combat. Furthermore, if one of my units gets stuck in I can't let that wreck the rest of my plans. I need redundancy both in terms of staying power and tactical flexibility. Space Marines can't achieve staying power through numbers, but they're fairly durable in terms of armor saves and toughness. I believe those characteristics in a 10 man squad gives me some decent staying power. As for tactical flexibility, the more squads I have the better. I'll still be able to accomplish a goal if I have a squad stuck in, and it may buy my other squads time to exploit emergent situations.
Killing Power is up next. Yeah, Stubborn will allow my units to stick around in combat for a while and allow me to tie up an opponent's unit, too. But I don't want to sit there the whole time getting my ass kicked. I need to eventually kill off his unit or at least greatly diminish its combat effectiveness. Space Marines are absolutely not as good in close combat as other armies, so how can Space Marines kill stuff with a reasonable degree of certainty in close combat? The short answer is power fists, STR 8 power weapons that hit at initiative 1. Put one on a Space Marine sergeant and he's got good chance of causing at least one wound with no armor save allowed every time he's in hand-to-hand. Is it as good as some other armies can pull off? Hell no. But the goal here is to buy time for my non-engaged units and gradually whittle down the opposing unit. Normal Power weapons also prevent armor saves and they're 10 points cheaper than a fist. In short, they can give your sergeant more opportunities to cause wounds by virtue of more chances to hit, but fists have a better chance to wound when they hit.
So far it looks like 10 man squads are best at meeting the Redundancy key, and slapping power fists or power weapons on models can provide some decent Killing Power. Looking at the codex, I see that any unit except a Command Squad can go up to 10 members; and any unit at least has the option of obtaining some flexibility but using transports, infiltrating, outflanking, etc. That's good, but it doesn't help me pick units that can best take advantage of Stubborn. Ditto for Killing Power - any sergeant can take power weapons or fists, and both Honor Guard and Vanguard Vets can spam the crap out of them. Time to move on to the last two keys, maybe that will help me narrow down my choice.
Target Selection is third. Some enemy units will always be better to tar pit than others. "Pick your battle" so to say. For Space Marines satisfying the Target Selection key is a two-fold process. As the mighty general, roller of dice and mover of little men I have to 1) pick a good enemy unit to tar pit and 2) be able to get that unit into the tar pit. The best unit type to tar pit will change based on opponent and game type, so the tactical flexibility I should have by meeting the Redundancy key should help here. Actually picking out the tar pit target? That's largely dependent on experience.
Last up is Wound Allocation. I think this one is pretty straightforward: try to keep the guy with the highest Leadership value around. For Space Marines, this is typically a sergeant which has the added bonus of keeping some Killing Power in my squad. With a leadership of 9, I have a 75% chance of staying in a combat so I can tar pit my opponent longer.
So far the keys I've outlined largely align with basic Space Marine characteristics: durability, flexibility, and decent killing power. Good Target Selection is comprised of experience (which isn't dependent on unit characteristics) and flexibility. Stubborn certainly isn't one of those USR's a player is going to go out of their way to use, like Furious Charge. Its job is to mire units in close combat, period. Stubborn will not win a battle or even a close combat by itself, and choosing an HQ based solely on the fact they make an army Stubborn isn't a good plan. Is it always advantageous to have a unit stuck in close combat? No, not at all - but remember, it's not always advantageous to the opponent, either. As a matter of fact, it can be a downright disadvantage with good Target Selection. The thing Stubborn Space Marines should probably try to avoid in most cases is being multi-charged. One enemy unit charges my two Tactical Squads, for example. That could be bad as sticking two Stubborn units in close combat will almost certainly hamper my flexibility, as they may both be there for a while.
I'm still not any closer to identifying the *perfect* unit to take in a Stubborn army and quite frankly I'm not sure there is supposed to be one. Sure, I can take 30 Assault Terminators and they would have both staying and killing power, but they aren't the most flexible of units in terms of moving around. Plus 30 terminators doesn't leave much points for anything else. Wish me luck trying to capture an objective, too. The ubiquitous Tactical Squad is another choice and seems like a pretty good one in this case. They're Troop choices, and I can give them wheels for flexibility and a hidden power fist/weapon. Bikes are another possibility, though I'll need a Captain on a bike to get the most out of them. Toughness 5 Troop choices that can move 24" in a turn, and bring along 3 melta weapons and a power fist? Seems good. They will be pricy, but not outrageous; and their flexibility isn't going to be hampered by losing their transport. They also provide more Target Selection flexibility thanks to their mobility.
Next post will have some army lists that feature Pedro Kantor and (Blue) Lysander.
Finding a use for Stubborn
A great local 40k player posted an interesting article on his blog regarding the Stubborn Universal Special Rule (USR) last week. After reading it, I felt challenged to find something - anything! - useful about Stubborn for units in the Space Marine codex. After all, I can't let my fancy blue Lysander go to waste, right? First off, how do Space Marines get access to the Stubborn USR? Both Lysander and Pedro Kantor replace Chapter Tactics with Stubborn. The fluff behind these two characters is that their primarch, Rogal Dorn, was a defensive genius. The Stubborn USR pretty much goes hand in hand with defensive oriented tactics. It allows a unit that loses a close combat to use their base leadership value for their morale test. So for example if I lost combat by 4 wounds, I will take my morale test at 9 instead of 5 (I'm assuming my sergeant is still alive). The problem with defensive tactics is that more often than not the best defense is (of course) a good offense.
Here's a little background on the characters who make Space Marines Stubborn: Captain Darnath Lysander leads the 1st Company of the Imperial Fists chapter, and is the only other Space Marine character aside from Marneus Calgar who has the Eternal Warrior USR. A model with Eternal Warrior is not affected by Instant Death, so that's good. He has 4 wounds, same as Mr. Calgar; wears terminator armor and is equipped with a STR 10 thunder hammer and a storm shield. Lysander has some other spiffy abilities as well. Pedro Kantor is the master of the unfortunate Crimson Fists chapter. In addition to granting an army Stubborn, he makes Sterngard Veterans scoring units and is armed with a Power Fist and suped-up Storm Bolter.
The main disadvantage of Stubborn is that units can stay in combat for a very long time when you may not want them to. The plus side is that any unit engaged in close combat with a Stubborn unit could also be in combat for a very long time. If the humble Astartes wish to take advantage of Stubborn, we must identify both the keys to maximizing its potential and the units that can do so to best effect. What are the keys to taking advantage of Stubborn? First is redundancy. Horde-type armies can take advantage of Stubborn through sheer weight of numbers. They can tar pit a unit and eventually kill it even after losing a lot of their own. I think the second key is sheer killing power. Horde armies also achieve this through weight of numbers. Quantity has a quality all its own. Target selection is the third key. If I can identify the optimal enemy unit to tar pit, that helps me win in the end because I've maximized the potential of one of my units while decreasing that of my opponent's unit. The last key is wound allocation. Keeping a squad leader with a good Leadership value around for as long as possible is important - not only for purposes of not failing a morale test, but because more often than not this is the guy we can pimp out with special weapons that can help us eventually win the combat.
In my next post I'll talk about what units I think can best take advantage of the Stubborn USR using the keys I listed. Are these keys set in stone? No. Are they even the right keys? I don't know for sure. I make no claim of being the world's best Space Marine player, not by far! Got ideas, post 'em up. Help me use Blue Lysander as something other than a paperweight!
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